The Great Ban/Errata Divide

We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Once you've registered and completed email validation, you'll need to reply to the thread in The Welcome mat before you gain full access to the site.

Join our community!

If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Pages:
1
2
3
…
17

The Great Ban/Errata Divide; Opinions Wanted!
Topic Started: Jun 8 2009, 09:12 PM (4,128 Views)
Guglio	Jun 9 2009, 04:51 AM Post #16
Senior Member Posts: 848 Group: Senior Member Member #7,831 Joined: April 18, 2009	The problem with Sabertooth is that he targets a character, not a STUNNED character, and can do it more the once a turn. Last time I checked, 4/4 is pretty standard for 3 drops. What he basically says is "Activate -> Target character is dead." He can wipe out opposing boards for little to no drawback. EDIT: Not looking to create a debate, just clarifying to ST why some people may want him gone. Edited by Guglio, Jun 9 2009, 04:52 AM.



Orange_Soda_Man	Jun 9 2009, 05:24 AM Post #17
Elite Member Posts: 1,693 Group: Senior Member Member #2,892 Joined: November 25, 2007	Guglio Jun 9 2009, 04:51 AM The problem with Sabertooth is that he targets a character, not a STUNNED character, and can do it more the once a turn. Last time I checked, 4/4 is pretty standard for 3 drops. What he basically says is "Activate -> Target character is dead." Pretty much. Will edit to add ST's post. Orange_Soda_Man Jun 9 2009, 02:59 AM Great thread. I'm going to edit this post with card suggestions. 1. Sabretooth, reformed killer 2. Caliban, Pestilence 3. Sage, Earth-616 4. Beak Saves the Day 5. Blink, Earth 295 - Clarice Ferguson 6. The shift mechanic itself maybe? 7. Pathetic Attempt? 8. The way names work - I shouldn't be able to play carrying the torch on a character and then be able to bring in another copy of the same character. Or maybe this is just an issue with Carrying the Torch? Or maybe not an issue at all? Shadow Trooper I had to reply to OSM's post. I hope you reply back. 1) I don't think Sabretooth needs to be touched. I might be mistaken but although his effect is a pretty strong one his weak 4/4 stats make him more than manageable by most of the decks out there. My play group doesn't play the card that much, as the usually go for Jack Frost when playing X-Factor and if playing Weapon-X Vision and Nuke take top honors. I know for a fact that in draft he is a beast but in constructed he hasn't impressed me that much. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has had bad experiences with this card. 2) I don't think Caliban, Pestilence needs to be addressed. Searches, rallies, and recursion aren't effects that draw cards but still net you card advantage, or the ability to fish for what you're looking for. Then there are other effects that can't be categorized like the one from SRA that allow for "additional cards". A 2 cost or lower Total Anarchy that can't be dealt with I think is more problematic, as some of the other effects some cards have while shifted. 3) Sage is not a problem if Blink is controlled, same thing goes for Mariko. Ther just isn't that much advantage gained with them when the number of character that can be recruited per turn is lowered. 4) Beak Saves the Day is a card that could be headed for the workshop. Honestly other than using it to abuse Blink and other characters with Shift effects what is the point of playing that card in the build phase? If limited to the combat and recovery phase the shenanigans Blink and company pull of are easier to control. 5) SHE NEEDS TO BE WORK WITH AND SHOULD OF BEEN #1 IN YOUR LIST. 6) Shift itself doesn't need to be worked with. Just because there are a few bad apples in the basket it doesn't mean we have to throw away the whole bunch. 7) It didn't happen while UDE was still with us and I don't think it should happen now. 8) Carrying the Torch is not a problem. I would be more concerned about Clash of Worlds but then again I have never heard anyone complaining about that card. It's an ongoing PT, it only works on characters cost 3 or more, easier to disrupt than say Clash. There are so many ways to break uniqueness now that I don't think it matters. The Captain, Clash of Worlds, Wolverine Squad, Bodyslide, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Mystique, Scarlet Spider, Superman -Red, Cadmus Labs, and so forth. I mean I think it has become more of an issue ever since the introduction of very powerful Legendary cards, but it is nothing new. I truly hope this just stays the same. 1 - I have more MEV sealed exp than I do constructed. That said, he would be much better imo if he just worked on stunned guys. Why does he have Energize? It's fine, but, idk. Giving mutants special stuff didn't work with traits, I don't think it would work with their own keyword [esp. if the keyword was meant for a DCU set]. 2 - here is where my #7 comes in: If I could Only Human or Mr. Sinister on Caliban or something, and have his shift powers [adding counters and shifting him into play] still work, then that would be ideal. Basically, nothing should be answerless. 3 - Sage, Mariko - If Beak Saves the Day is stamped to recovery phase, then I'd agree. As it stands, there is Panop, Beak, Shadowcat, Body Slide, Curse of Darkness, etc. Even without Beak Saves the Day, Blues686 could still burn people for 20-ish a run with that exiles deck of his. 5 - she's so stupid. ban her. 5 other versions anyways, 2 of which are 1-drops so if people really want to fire off their warp shards they can. 6 - back to the Caliban thing. nothing should be answerless; characters can lose powers, plot twists can be negated, locations can be replaced. Rally/search are just pseudo answers; they're great if they work, but they don't solve the problem. Maybe I have a perceptual issue in that I feel everything should have an answer head-on, but I'd like to think a better answer could be found for characters with shift powers. 7 - pretty much. 8 - I was thinking from a flavor perspective, Punisher puts on Cap's mask. He's still punisher. There's still only 1 Punisher in the Marvel Universe. What happens when you recruit another Punisher? you have two. what the hax? Say instead Captain America comes back to life. Ok. So you have two people running around acting like Cap. Things like that have happened before. Edited by Orange_Soda_Man, Jun 9 2009, 05:42 AM.



lupercal	Jun 9 2009, 10:50 AM Post #18
Regular Posts: 46 Group: Member Member #7,680 Joined: February 11, 2009	This is the problem with having this discussion with players and not pro's or card designers and r&d. Everybody offers up extremely subjective opinions and hasn't really clarified their reasoning with regards to your post HC. Everyone has their favourite decks / cards / teams and their own local metagames. So if one card wrecks your favourite deck then you will see that card in a different light to someone who is willing to change how their deck works or change to an entirely different deck or strategy. This is always an issue with a constructed environment and i think it should not be reason for an errata or ban (and i assume so does HC or this would be a reason on his list). The only cards i can think of that meet the requirements HC has outlined are Armed Escort and Blink, Clarice Ferguson. Armed Escort meets the criteria for #3 on this list, as when it was printed no character that could infinitely ready on becoming a defender didn�t exist. This has been addressed a thousand times and the easiest way to fix this card without changing its intended effect is to limit the activated power to once per turn. Blink, Clarice Ferguson. #1 No mistake or typo was made. #2 Isn�t a templating problem. #3 She hasn�t become a problem since new cards or mechanics were introduced. #4 Her power is crystal clear. #5 She works perfectly she was intended to have a bunch of characters shifted out and then provide them with free shift counters. #6 Blink is just too good at what she does. The average deck will have spent 10 resource points by turn 4, the average Exiles player will have spent between 20 and 25, a large amount of these due to Blink. Now she was certainly meant to provide free counters, but I don�t believe that 7 characters, 30 points of damage and turn 4 kills were the intended side effects of these counters. Therefore she fits in as a #6 problem and so in my opinion the only solution is a ban. I would also like to point out that I am a massive Exiles fan and I play the deck (not often but sparingly), so I am not speaking out of hatred for her. The names issue is an interesting one. My view is that a retrospective solution would be confusing and a lot of information to remember. Instead a better solution might be that when we reach the point where we are making official sets then it can be addressed there.



kariggi	Jun 9 2009, 03:15 PM Post #19
Elite Member Posts: 1,302 Group: Senior Member Member #7,607 Joined: February 4, 2009	I agree with lupercal.



I_Avian	Jun 9 2009, 04:39 PM Post #20
Regular Posts: 53 Group: Member Member #7,611 Joined: February 5, 2009	I agree with Lupercal. If eratta were preferred over banning, or banning left Exiles without the juice to succeed (I think it's a possiblity), then perhaps an errata letting Blink put X counters on Shifted characters would work - she still gives you a boost regarding Shift counters, but not such a huge one. X being whatever number seems balanced (I'd say 1 or 2) [Caveat: The errata was a top of the head idea, there is no real thought behind it]



Shadowtrooper	Jun 9 2009, 04:44 PM Post #21
Elite Member Posts: 2,937 Group: Senior Member Member #7,630 Joined: February 5, 2009	1) Sabretooth does indeed affect stunned characters, which with an activation from him doesn't make him that much different from a Finishing Move. I can see how he can be more bothersome than I originally thought, but he isn't answerless which is something you can appreciate. 2) I agree that nothing should be answerless, but I do believe that there are other effects that take precedence over him. It is not impossible to win a game without additional draw, but for example an army deck that can't recover its characters is pretty much done for. 3) Yes Blues could burn for 20ish or more, but look at his tourney report. Not to trash his deck as it was a great build, but his deck wasn't as consistent as a straight Exiles build to do the damage. He risked consistency for extra burn. Now the reason I say this is because Cable didn't do much without Bodyslide, and Bodyslide didn't do anything without Cable. Now if you can only bring in 3 characters on turn 4 Mariko burns only for 6 and with Bodyslide to 12. While it is still a decent chunk of endurance it is a scenario in which you need both Cable and Bodyslide. Yes even without Beak Saves the Day you can burn for a lot, but the real problem with Mariko and Sage is when a player can bring in 5 to 7 characters into play in a single turn, and that my friend is done via Blink. Panoptichron isn't bringing more characters into play it essentially switches them, Bodyslide doesn't bring new characters into play it simply takes them out for a while, Curse of Darkness does the same thing though I have never seen Exiles with Darkseid's Elite, but I don't think that would matter much because then you would also have the issue of teaming-up. I say skip to 5, and then if Sage and Mariko still cause problems then address them if not then let them be. 5) I like many others have used the suggested errata on Blink and it does in fact balance her out. 6) There is a big difference IMO between points 1 and 6. 1 being that characters with effects while shifted be addressed while in 6 you are asking for the whole mechanic to be fixed or addressed. Not the same thing. I do not think Shift should be changed specially if the effects created by shifted characters are worked with. Now the question is, why would we want to change shift in general when it is clear that only some of the cards are the ones that need to be worked with? 7) I do appreciate flavor in the game, but I don't think this becomes 2 much of an issue. a) So we get a DC character with a Marvel name or vice versa- AMALGAM COMICS. b) So we get 2 characters that are the same - PARALLEL UNIVERSE. c) So Punisher is now Captain America - ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. d) A female character becomes a male character or vice versa - WEIRD OPERATION DOWN AT SOUTH AMERICA. We are comic book fans that enjoy playing a game. I think we can come up with an explanation for what has happened that makes sense. But maybe thats just me. Thanks for the reply man I always enjoy seeing how others view things in a way that differs from mine. Edited by Shadowtrooper, Jun 9 2009, 04:48 PM.



Orange_Soda_Man	Jun 9 2009, 05:55 PM Post #22
Elite Member Posts: 1,693 Group: Senior Member Member #2,892 Joined: November 25, 2007	I'm fine with them all; I won't not play because of a card or cards. On Shift and 'extra' shift powers and having answers, it's not too big of a deal. Tech cards can be made. On the named shift dudes, yeah. The burn won't be fatal without Blink. I was thinking that if we have to errata blink too much then by UDE's precedent we should ban her. Same with Beak saves the day. Carrying the Torch is one of my favorite cards, so I shouldn't be arguing against it. It doesn't make sense though for someone to put on a mask and then it be ok for another copy of that someone to show up without any questions arising. But you're right; alot of crazy stuff has happened in comics anyways.



kansashoops	Jun 9 2009, 07:02 PM Post #23
Senior Member Posts: 205 Group: Member Member #385 Joined: February 15, 2007	DoomStat Jun 9 2009, 02:37 AM Has anyone removed the Ban/Errata from their Hobby League/Kitchen table play? I am curious due to the fact that I am concidering doing just that. Then again, my players only come for the fun of the game, and are hardly cut throat when it comes to Vs. DoomStat As of this week, we are playing with no ban list. Erratas still apply, and we've unofficially errata'ed Overload so that it works like System Failure. There's also a gentleman's agreement that we won't play any of the broken combos that got the banned cards banned in the first place. We'll see how it goes.



captainspud	Jun 9 2009, 07:14 PM Post #24
Senior Member Posts: 122 Group: Member Member #7,718 Joined: February 18, 2009	kansashoops Jun 9 2009, 07:02 PM There's also a gentleman's agreement that we won't play any of the broken combos that got the banned cards banned in the first place. We'll see how it goes. That's the rule our group always operated under-- if you want to use a banned card, find out what it was banned for, and don't use it that way. But using Dr. Light to get one Emerald Enemy a turn, or Valeria to cycle three or four cards over a game, aren't really a problem.



Eponymous	Jun 9 2009, 08:40 PM Post #25
Senior Member Posts: 131 Group: Member Member #7,780 Joined: March 12, 2009	HC is 100% right about the rationale behind banning overpowered cards that were being used as intended. However, while I know the bannings were right at the time, I wonder why we need to maintain the UDE hardline. As Spud pointed out, we will have to look at some of the cards we generate as a community and find the right balance for them. UDE won't be banning any more cards, so can't we try to assess the exisiting ban list as well? I admit I'm biased. The Valeria banning saddened me inmensely. I know she was overpowered, but she brough more to the table than a draw ability. She allowed you to control Doom on turn 1. We already had 2 versions of Doomstadt that have the same result, so this is not an unbalanced effect. What did she allow you to do? On turn 1, you could flip Doomstadt, recruit Boris and tutor. Or you could recruit Boris, discard a card to recruit Valeria for free and tutor. Ultimately, Valeria made Boris more playable. Moreover, she was FF/Doom. She fit right into an existing archetype (Common Enemy). Why was she banned? Because of her powerful draw ability. Couldn't we now agree to tone down that ability so we can standarize how she is played? I know many people pitched their erratas for Valeria at the time



Eponymous	Jun 9 2009, 08:44 PM Post #26
Senior Member Posts: 131 Group: Member Member #7,780 Joined: March 12, 2009	Sorry! I meant to hit the preview button and posted the message instead. I'll just finish with my pitch for a Valeria errata (and Im not a card designer, so I may be creating other problems): Valeria Von Doom, Heir to Latveria Character, Doom, Fantastic Four, Cost: 1 1 ATK/1 DEF Ranged You may discard a card rather than pay Valeria Von Doom's recruit cost. You are considered to control Dr. Doom. Whenever you play a plot twist from your resource row, you may return Valeria Von Doom to your hand. If you do, draw a card and then discard a card. MHG-154 - Common



Trader2699	Jun 10 2009, 08:44 PM Post #27
Regular Posts: 86 Group: Member Member #7,615 Joined: February 5, 2009 Twitter Trader2699	My HL has stuck to the ban list, and we've not had any problems. I did build an Exiles deck just after MEV came out, and I found it no fun to play, so I took it apart. At this point in the game I'd rather have fun while playing rather than focusing on the win, so I don't see a need to play Exiles. However, that is a local metagame. We are all focused on playing and having a good time. If "the council" wants to be able to institute higher level OP, a ban/errata on Blink should be right around the corner. Sticking with HC's guidelines, she definitely falls under the "too powerful" moniker. For Armed Escort, I'd say the same thing. There's not really an issue I have with anything else (Bamf jokes aside, of course).



kariggi	Jun 10 2009, 09:04 PM Post #28
Elite Member Posts: 1,302 Group: Senior Member Member #7,607 Joined: February 4, 2009	The safest first step might be to put once per turn on Armed Escort since I haven't heard a single voice argue it should be otherwise. Once that is accepted a precedent will have been set that council rulings are "official". Then we can take care of that pink skinned trouble maker and maybe more. First establish a precedent that no one in their right mind will stand against. Once that is established we can take away the rest of their rights under the same banner...er um ah...we can make other wise and just rulings which are in their benefit I meant to say of course.



andrewbircher	Jun 10 2009, 09:09 PM Post #29
Senior Member Posts: 136 Group: Member Member #7,627 Joined: February 5, 2009	kariggi Jun 10 2009, 09:04 PM The safest first step might be to put once per turn on Armed Escort since I haven't heard a single voice argue it should be otherwise. Once that is accepted a precedent will have been set that council rulings are "official". Then we can take care of that pink skinned trouble maker and maybe more. First establish a precedent that no one in their right mind will stand against. Once that is established we can take away the rest of their rights under the same banner...er um ah...we can make other wise and just rulings which are in their benefit I meant to say of course. are we working case law here? might i refer us to the People vs Armed Escort



DoomStat	Jun 10 2009, 10:17 PM Post #30
Regular Posts: 72 Group: Member Member #7,807 Joined: April 5, 2009	lupercal Jun 9 2009, 10:50 AM Armed Escort meets the criteria for #3 on this list, as when it was printed no character that could infinitely ready on becoming a defender didn�t exist. This has been addressed a thousand times and the easiest way to fix this card without changing its intended effect is to limit the activated power to once per turn. Alright, I need to know how this is so busted. If I recall correctly: Armed Escort Equipment Cost: 1 Armed Escort costs 1 less to recruit while you control a Crime Lords character. Equipped character has "Activate -> If you control a defender, remove all defenders from this attack, and equipped character becomes a defender." Why is this such a big deal, besides for stalling games to time? I understand that Energize readys the equipped character, but how will this affect the game? If you have to activate to use the Armed Escort, what are you gaining? If the only interaction is with the Red Skull 3drop, I don't see it as that amazing of a combo. I guess this will be just my opinion, but needing a team-up, Armed Escort, an energize character and Red Skull doesn't seem too scary. There are plenty of ways to stunt this combo, but I guess this will go the same as every other card combination that is "busted."



1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)


Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Vs. System General Discussion · Next Topic »

Pages:
1
2
3
…
17