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Why Isn't DUN or DFC Council-Approved?
Topic Started: Jun 29 2010, 02:46 AM (1,767 Views)
CptPugwash
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Quote:
 
You're correct, we never requested Council approval.


Doesn't this comment from the lead designer make all other comments on the sets worthiness of council approvement rather irrelevant.
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thefilth999
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CptPugwash
Jun 29 2010, 08:13 PM
Quote:
 
You're correct, we never requested Council approval.


Doesn't this comment from the lead designer make all other comments on the sets worthiness of council approvement rather irrelevant.
Not necessarily. Spud isn't saying "We never requested Council approval and don't want it to be approved," he's saying they never asked for it. If people want it to be approved and Spud & Guglio are OK with that, then I don't see why we can't.
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scottkthompson
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We'll put preview cards for any set that wants it on the front page. We were asked by the design team to put them there, and thought it was a fun idea, so we did it. I never thought that months down the road I would be on the council and it would be used against me (Remember that I was an author at vssystem.org before I became a moderator or a council member). I do agree we should be held accountable for our actions. But anything I wrote for DFC was pre my council membership; and purley for the enjoyment of writing.

That being said, I really have nothing against DFC. I don't play fansets myself; they're not my cup of tea. If people want it approved we can certainly take a closer look at it. It's obvious Spud and crew put a ton of time into it, and they do deserve recognition for it. However, if community playtesting finds any problems with the set, they'll have to be willing to make some minor changes if it's needed.
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scottkthompson
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lastchance
Jun 29 2010, 08:05 PM
Please forgive any grammatical errors because I'm writing this all from my iPhone outside on the street!
Wow, I'm impressed! Long post from a phone. My Blackberry posts are one sentence!
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kariggi
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Who cares what they want they built the car but the company owns it now we can drive it however we like.

or

There's no putting the cat back in the bag, its out if its meets the criteria of an "Official" set it should be recognized as such and validated, if not well we can still drive it just not on public highways.
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thefilth999
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scottkthompson
Jun 29 2010, 08:48 PM
We're fine Filth.

We'll put preview cards for any set that wants it on the front page. We were asked by the design team to put them there, and thought it was a fun idea, so we did it. I never thought that months down the road I would be on the council and it would be used against me (Remember that I was an author at vssystem.org before I became a moderator or a council member). I do agree we should be held accountable for our actions. But anything I wrote for DFC was pre my council membership; and purley for the enjoyment of writing.
I'm glad we're fine. :) I really do appreciate all the hard work. I check for 100 Ideas tournament updates daily; it's my favorite thing on the site.

Imagine how most (useful) elected officials feel when they are doing what they can and still have approval ratings in the toilet. It's hard to be the king. But, as Mel Brooks said, it's good to be the king. Quite the contradiction.

I remember when I used to write for vssystem.org... back before it was vssystem.org... oh, those DC Legends set reviews!
Edited by thefilth999, Jun 29 2010, 09:10 PM.
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KardKrazy
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Oh if you want evidence that Spud stated he doesn't care about it being approved then you just have to read under that line Filth...Here -
Quote:
 
I have no objections to any actions the Council has made; rather, I think the Council idea itself is a little silly. People who like the semblance of officiality are welcome to it, but that's not something I or the team ever worried about.

later,
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Jun 29 2010, 09:05 PM.
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kariggi
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scottkthompson
Jun 29 2010, 08:48 PM

Imagine how most (useful) elected officials feel when they are doing what they can and still have approval ratings in the toilet.
I live in the United States, I don't believe there are any usefull ones anymore, in fact I am now advocating simply appointing Welfare recipients to a single term to permanently remove them from the dole and to improve government over all.

Folks who went to college can go get another job and stop living off my hard earned dollars, while stuffing their bank accounts with corporate campaigne contributions.
Edited by kariggi, Jun 29 2010, 09:12 PM.
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CptPugwash
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thefilth999
Jun 29 2010, 08:40 PM
CptPugwash
Jun 29 2010, 08:13 PM
Quote:
 
You're correct, we never requested Council approval.


Doesn't this comment from the lead designer make all other comments on the sets worthiness of council approvement rather irrelevant.
Not necessarily. Spud isn't saying "We never requested Council approval and don't want it to be approved," he's saying they never asked for it. If people want it to be approved and Spud & Guglio are OK with that, then I don't see why we can't.
I think i have to disagree with this for 2 reasons.

Firstly, while a fan-set designer has no intellectualy rights over their set, they should still be able to say that they don't want council approval.

Secondly and more importantly IMO, a fan-set designer wishing to submit their set for approval should obviously be willling to listen to recomended changes on their set. It would seem rediculous to me that people would be expected to put lots of time and effort into reviewing/playtesting/ etc if the designer was not willling to listen to any recomendations. It appears to me that is probably the case here. If i'm wrong here i hope Spud comes out & says he wishes his set to be submitted for council approval.

There's plenty of other pressing things that the council members can be working on, to make this forum the centre of remains of the V.S. universe.
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lastchance
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Personally, I think that if the Council is going to go the mile and make certain sets official to play, then I bit more coordination and guidelines should be voted upon to make everyone less confused and happy with the decision making. If a number of people want to make a set in hopes of it being official, then the Council should work in conjunction with them to help make things run as smoothly as possible. Having people make sets, post them, and have the Council decide afterward if a set is "worthy" enough in so many ways as to be official to play seems like to me like a somewhat faulty system that could be better well managed altogether for the sake of the community in general.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that besides certain rules and guidelines being set in place when making a set to hopefully become official, The Council should be involved some with the production of sets to be official, instead of deciding if a set is official AFTER it's created. In doing so, I believe they would greatly increase consistancy, playability, and redusancy issues in general. If the Council should think this would entail too much work for them to handle, then a seperated group should be formed to handle these tasks that would then answer to the Council.
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captainspud
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To clarify:

1. "Don't care" really means just that. I don't care that it's currently not approved, but I also wouldn't care if people did decide to approve it. Whether or not the Council wants to approve something, and whether or not players want to pay attention to that approval, is entirely up to those parties. Doesn't affect me one bit either way. :)

2. We already have a mechanism in place to update cards based on feedback with our Errata page. We compiled all the constructive criticism we received during the previews and applied it to the cards that were released on launch day; we're happy to make further edits based on further feedback, but simply haven't received any more.

Quote:
 
Then I think you might either want to get a new monitor, or go back to the eye doctor. I'd post a picture, BUT SHADOWTROOPER ALREADY DID.

Seriously guys, look at the card number/illustrator line again. You're lying to yourselves if you pretend they look the same.

Whoa, is that all you're complaining about? The lack of bolding on one field on the card template? Here I thought you were complaining about something substantial, like the image artifacting problems.

The field is still completely legible as-is. And if people really care that much, Gugs can get the template's designer to flick the "bold" flag on for that field. It's basically a non-issue.

Either way, I find it hilarious that people are flipping out so much over such a ridiculously small detail. I mean, my god, folks... it's a fan card. The important parts are the words.
Edited by captainspud, Jun 29 2010, 09:41 PM.
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kariggi
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WORDS HAVE NO MEANING HERE

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lastchance
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By the way, did it not occur to anyone that maybe the creators of the DFC set are extremely nice people who happen to also be very humble? For all the work they did I think it's safe to assume that they put their hearts into something the were very fond of that they wanted to see continue and have others enjoy. If I put that much work into something I loved (and I have), I too, would HOPE for other people to enjoy it as much as I did and would just be happy that I was able to make something that I was proud of. Being humble and not looking for rewards or recognition is the admirable thing to do. Everyone likes recognition, but it's harder to be humble and just appreciate your own worth. If I was them I wouldn't be asking for my set to be official, either. The set should be judged upon it's own merits, especially when the creators are trying to remain neutral in the decision.
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KardKrazy
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lastchance,
the following is my opinions and only mine as they do not reflect the Council as a whole. Here we go. I'll go out on a limb and say that I think the Council does enough. If I get disliked for this comment then so be it. But the council as a whole dedicates more time to this site and game than is almost impossible to comprehend. If people want to design a quality set and then have it put up for approval then let them ask. Don't expect us to fish it out.

CaptainSpud,
I do have to ask. The whole "errata page" is that just your working place to put notes on what needs to be changed in the set and you will update it eventually or do you expect players who want to play with DFC go check the "errata page"? Wouldn't take too much of your time to update the file so all the cards are correct at all times. Also, yes I care about the actual presentation of the card as a whole. Not just the text box.

later,
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Jun 29 2010, 10:26 PM.
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Guglio
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Oh christ.

Look, here's what I can tell you:

1. During the second iteration of the Council, when Carlos, Cap Comet and HomerJ were on it (I don't recall who else was there other than HC), I sent a text spoiler to them for revision. Numerous amount of edits were suggested and implemented - Time Trapper 5 drop was powered down, for example. This was never intended to be a council approval thing. The set was met with resistance from HomerJ, although later that was due to the heated disagreement I had with him. Nevertheless, many of his suggestions were also implemented, so still kudos to him on that.

2. Charge / Flaw are not difficult to use. The FAQ entries make the keywords seem far bigger than they are. Anti-Life was yes, a lot of bookkeeping, but we simply could not pass up the opportunity to try a cursed team affiliation theme.

3. This set was in playtesting for about 7 months. DCU recieved very little playtesting and we wanted to make sure we avoided that the second time around. Cards are not set in stone - other than Ambush Bug and Investigation of a Deicide, not many were brought up for editting after release.

4. We are aware of the sealed / draft problem, and the teams generally non-interactivity with each other. These concerns are being taken into consideration for the next set. PROMISE.

Remember that this set was released during the era of online VS play - this "bookkeeping" that people complain about is nothing extreme online.

That said, ultimately, we made the set because we wanted to. I see many folks around here saying "I want to push for X set to be council approved so that's why I'm making it as such!" To me, this is the wrong way to approach set design, so where DFC goes from here is up to the rest of you, I suppose.

On the templating: I'm not suggesting MSE2 is BETTER than Photoshop, just that they are equal tools. People should not be expected to pay $4000 for an image editor just to have their cards approved. Further, as I have repeatedly said, MSE2 PNGs print out and look identical to real cards. At the size of a real card, I really doubt the bolding on the number line will show.

EDIT: The Errata Page doesn't actually show any Errata that is in effect now. It refers to cards that were changed between the preview run and release.
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